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December 14, 2005

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Maggie

I sent an e-mail out to many friends in my address book...to Christians and to those of the Jewish faith. My request was that if they knew what a person celebrated, to wish them the appropriate greeting. No where does it say that as a Christian, I cannot wish a Jewish friend, Happy Hanukkah.

It signals that I acknowledge their religious belief and that I respect their belief, albeit different from mine.

As a city girl, born and raised in the Big Apple, I learned the street smarts that you always take out the "big guy" first...then the little ones fall into line.

I consider the removal of the very word Christmas and the removal of religious aspects (i.e. creches and carols) as an attack on the "big guy" (Christianity).

I prefer not to see this country become France and outlaw crosses, yarmulkes, and hajibs from our public schools. Secularists believe the removal of all religion will bring peace....we in this country have lived Christian and Jew side by side peacefully for decades. I believe the removal of religion will bring a deterioration of the moral society as we have known it.

But, of course, we could do what has been suggested this week and tax porn (ala taxing fast food) and may the number of degenerates would decline as do our waistlines.

Brian Macker

Maggie,

Did you mean "some secularists"? I know many "secularists" and none of them believe that "removal of all religion will bring peace". I imagine the percent that do is vanishingly small. You are not very careful in you writing and I am not sure this represents your actual thinking or not.

BTW they do tax porn, and I don't think it has reduced the number of "degenerates", whoever you define that. Why would you expect that to happen? Perhaps you were not being clear on this either and you meant to tax porn at some exorbitant rate?

Perhaps since you are into the government controlling our sex lives you might be in favor of a welfare system for males? Obviously males have a greater need for sex that is not being provided. Perhaps a tax on women in the form of pro-bono work is in order. ;)

I am also wondering where you get this notion that men wanting sex is degenerate. Do you think women looking at clothes they cannot afford in catalogs is degenerate? How about clothes that don't fit. If that analogy isn't close enough for you then how about going to the store to try clothes on that one cannot afford, or don't fit.

Do little girls that use stick ponys and spring horses bother you? After all they are not only entertaining a fantasy that they will most likely never enjoy, owning a pony, but they are actually, horrifying as it is, deriving pleasure from an inanimate object. What about riding stables, where you rent a horse. That's sort of like the bunny ranch in Nevada isn't it. :( I think PETA would agree.

He, he...

Regards,
Brian

Brian Macker

We atheist don't consider your "virtual believers" to be atheists. They are in fact theists in every sense of the word. You can have them.

I think you are confused perhaps by the statement "I don't believe in god". I run into a significant number of believers who get confused on this issue due to equivocation on the meaning of the word "believe". The word has several meanings, and many religious people get stuck on the definitions that means "to have confidence and trust in". They think that when I say I do not believe in god that I think god exists but just don't have confidence in the fellow. This is the meaning that should be used to mean those who are pissed at god, or find his works lacking but still believe he exists.

When I say that I don't believe in god I am using a different meaning of the word "believe". I am using the meaning "to accept as true or real". You see I think that your god is make believe like Santa Claus.
You also state: "These people don't believe not because they lack the capacity, but because they feel that their belief has not been rewarded by the Deity."

People who self identify as non-believers are of the latter and not the former kind as much as theists want to stick them in the former category. It's not that we hate god, we really don't think he exists, and for some conceptions of god we know he doesn't exist as much as we know square-circles don't exist.

I know of no of absolutely no atheists that don't believe in God because they "lack the capacity". I don't believe because there is no credible evidence that a God does exist, if there was credible evidence then I would believe. I am not like a dog or a rock. Those would be properly classified as not having the capacity.

BTW, I don't care whether Christmas is celebrated publicly or not. In fact I think Santa Claus is very instructive on the nature of God and serves as a good object lesson in theology. That along with the Easter Bunny and Leprachans.

What I did find offensive in school was being force to pray, or to say the national anthem with the inserted "under god" phrase. It's quite intimidating to have authority figures requiring you to tow the line when you're six or seven years old, when you think they are off their rockers. Especially when they hold the power to give you grades which effect your life in quite profound ways.

Singing Christmas songs about imaginary red-nosed reindeer and jolly snowmen isn't really that offensive to us non-believers. No more so than singing about rubber tree plants. What is offensive is forcing us to take oaths to imaginary beings. If you stuck "under Frosty" in our anthem and there was a history of burning people at the stake for not believing in Frosty then you can be sure I would find that offense. If not I would only find it laughable. I don't find anything inherently offensive about cross burning either, except for the historical message and quite real threat involved.

I also don't like having "In God We Trust" on our money either, but I am not likely to protest about it. It just isn't on the top of my list of bad behavior on the part of Christians, and it is bad behavior.

I only wish Christians would get a chance to live in an alternate universe where they are force to go to schools where the explicitly teach in the non-existence of gravity, and are cracked over the knuckles by flat earthers for questioning the idea that the world is flat. Then they might understand how wrong they are. I think that wish is in vain however. It is plain to see that there are parts of the world where exactly this has happened, communist countries. The Christians can see it is wrong but just can't do the moral arithmetic to see that it's wrong when they do it also.


Daniel

Brian,

I think that you and I are talking about different things, here. I don't think that Virtual Believers are atheists at all. In fact, I say that their quasi-non-belief in itself affirms their belief. That was my point.

I wrote some time ago that telling me that I was going to hell because I didn't believe was rather funny because I would only be worried if I believed in God and Hell. It would be like telling me that I am about to burst into flames because I don't believe in unicorns.

I'd love to go further, and I will, but my head is still fuzzy and I want to rest the brain.

Brian Macker

Daniel,

I saw that you stated that virtual believers were not atheists at all. I didn't miss that point. The problem is that there are many theists that claim there are no such things as atheists, just god-haters that wish to do evil. The fact that you labeled your " "virtual believers"" as non-believers then stated they were truly believers is not helpful in this regard. This is confusing. Why label them non-believers? I did not believe that you were doing this intentionally.

Of course, I was speculating as to how you arrived at the decision to write as you did and took a stab at a response. If I was talking to you in person I would just ask you what you actually intended because of the instantaneous response time. However in this medium I tend to assume some interpretation and then respond to that. It saves me time, and frankly I like to bloviate on my own concerns anyway even if I got the interpretation wrong.

So if misunderstood you, as Rosana-ana-dana says, "never mind".

Sorry about your head, and hope you feel better.

BTW, I also disagree with your statements about expectations from God. Given some definitions of God I think it perfectly reasonble to expect that natural disasters should not be killing babies, or that he not drown everyone on the planet because he gets in a pissy mood.

Leviticus also gives us clear and ample evidence that from a historical perspective that the expectation of theists was "God as favor grantor". The entire chapter is devoted to blood sacrafice and how god loves the "sweet savor" of fresh roast meat on the altar. In fact the entire Cain and Able spat was over the issue of vegtables as sacrafice or meat. You will also find evidence there that God hates cripples and men who have been injured to the testicles as they are banned from going anywhere near the altar, and are of sanctity and apparently bribery.

Much of Exodus is also interpretable as god granting favors to the Jews over the Egyptians. As are many of the miricles of Christ. If giving the blind person back their sight, or a cripple the use of there legs, is not a favor then I don't know what is.

If you think that is merely historical then don't forget present day faith healers, football team pre-game prayers, and the like.

BTW, as far as I know Jews do believe in an afterlife of sorts, it just different the angelic paradise of the Christians or the sexually hedonistic one of the Muslims. Originally both Christian and Muslim afterlifes being places with corporial bodies, although some sects now play that down.

I had the Jewish afterlife explained to me once by a hasidic Jew and I don't know if every sect is the same or not. It's sort of like a place you go where you exist in the light of your achievements or the shame for your trespasses. He didn't mention any physical body but it was clear that your "spirit" lived on.

pennywit

A stake of holly?

Good post here, though. I, for one, marvel at one more irony. One upon a time, a certain religious leader drove moneychangers out of a temple. Now, a certain religion's followers seem eager to bring the temple to the moneychangers.

Happy holidays.

--|PW|--

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